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Borrego Bob

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Reply with quote  #1 
Ask about anyone in the online AR communities which one is a better long range shooter and they will say its the Creedmore. The problem is its not true. The 6.5 has a growing following with new shooters and lots of online hype that most simply repeat without running the numbers. Heres a couple charts. 

Here's a graph showing showing 7mm08 VS 6.5 Creedmore using Hornady factory loaded Super Performance Ammo. It only shows one line because they follow the same path. Notice thought that the 7mm08 delivers more energy throughout the path.

[ballistic_trajectories_chart_ae776f38]  http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ballistic-trajectory-chart.php?t=ba431b0a

But you say the 129gr SST is a poor long range choice for the 6.5 move that to a 140gr and it will smoke the 7mm08!! Wrong once you adjust the 7mm08 to a 154gr SST VS a 140gr 6.5 and the 7mm08 wins again. Heres Hornady load data.

IMG_0826[2].JPG  IMG_0826[2].JPG 

Put those numbers in a chart and it tells the story again. The 7mm08 shoots flatter and hits harder with larger grain bullets and a larger caliber. 

IMG_0826[2].JPG  http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ballistic-trajectory-chart.php?t=d9838747

Now you look on ammo seek to see have more variety and lower cost of ammo and the 7mm08 wins again.

http://ammoseek.com/ammo/6.5mm-creedmoor

http://ammoseek.com/ammo/7mm-08-remington

The 6.5 Grendel is one of the best large capacity SAMMI ammo choices in the AR-15 but that does not translate up to the AR-10 platform. This is how caliber cults can give people blind spots and over look awesome calibers like the 7mm08 in favor of more trendy options that won't serve your needs as well. Whle the 6.5 Grendel is one of the best choices in the AR15 the 7mm08 is probably the best choice in the AR10 platform. 




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DEER HUNTER

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Reply with quote  #2 
Very interesting, I would've thought the Creedmore would've smoked the 7mm08.
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USAF007

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Reply with quote  #3 
Interesting. But is the 7mm-08 as easy to use in the -10 platform as the CM. Ie, same bolt and mags?
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Tedward

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Reply with quote  #4 
Apples to apples with the same weight bullet, the 6.5 Creedmoor has the 7mm-08. (A-max and SST). I don't see how the chart is a true value, More speed, smaller OD Bullet but the same trajectory? 

Right from Hornady website. 

7mm-08 with 120gr SST

MUZZLE100200300400500
2675/19072435/15792207/12981992/10571790/8531603/685

6.5 Creedmoor with 120gr A-max

MUZZLE100200300400500
2910/22962712/19592522/16952340/14592166/12501999/1065

BUT, the 140gr are pretty equal in velocity to 500 yards. Notice the 7mm-08 has more muzzle velocity (+200fps) but is slowing down faster @ 500 yards is only 65fps faster. At 1000 I would assume the 6.5 is boosting more velocity that the 7mm-8 no matter how the charts print it out. 

7mm-08 with 139gr SST

MUZZLE100200300400500
2950/26862757/23452571/20402393/17682222/15242059/1308


6.5 Creedmoor with 140gr A-max

MUZZLE100200300400500
2710/22832557/20322409/18042266/15962128/14081995/1237


NEW 6.5 143gr ELD-X Precision Hunter is slower out the barrel but almost equal at 500 yards to the 7mm-08 wit the 139gr. Hornady doesn't offer as many projectiles for the 7mm-08 so it just shows how it holds its velocity being a 6.5 projectile.

MUZZLE100200300400500
2700/23152557/20762419/18582285/16582156/14752030/1308


And I really didn't know there are caliber Cult's lurking out there to say one is better than the other. I find the Creedmoor a good AR-10 round because it uses the same 6.5 projectiles as the Grendel so you can mix it up if you find too heavy of a bullet for the Grendel, load it up in the Creedmoor. 

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Borrego Bob

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Reply with quote  #5 
In the real world you don't have to use the same bullet weight though thats an artificial restraint.
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B4Sunrise

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Reply with quote  #6 
This is interesting, I myself am just about to pull the trigger on the 6.5 Creedmoor. I own a 7mm Rem Mag and know it's reputation for laser like ballistics is well earned. 7 mm Rem Mag was purchased for Elk in particular and it excels at that role, I will say that my ethical max range for Elk is 600 yds - that is only for a sure Boone & Crocket animal should I ever see one. Otherwise I'd prefer 400 yds or less after all this is "hunting" not "shooting" and a child can get with 800 yds of an Elk. My home state changed and I went from a slug-only area to a rifle area and frankly the 7mm RM is overkill for deer, the round is a barrel-burner and recoil is an issue. So I am looking for a highly accurate deer rifle that has significantly less recoil than the 7mm RM. The 6.5 Creedmoor undoubtedly handles the job of deer rifle, though the 7mm-08 may be a better choice for a hunter. I hold to the school of thought the heavier bullet the better.
What you are saying here makes sense given the same weight the 7mm-08 bullet will have a lower sectional density than the 6.5 bullet thus would have have poorer ballistics. On the other hand given the 7mm-08 is able to match the 6.5 Creedmoor with a heavier bullet, in a hunting application, it would seem to me it's preferable. 
I have not seen recoil energy for the Creedmoor  (not on the Chuckhawks table), based on its comparison to the rem .260 I am assuming it's 13 lbs for a 7.5 lb rifle, the 7-08 is 12.1 for a 7.5 lb rifle, both are well under the 15 lbs so I don't believe recoil factors into the selection for either. So IMO the deciding factor between the 6.5 Creedmoor and 7-08 (ruling out emotion) would be rifle availability and average price of ammo. Finding a rifle in either is easily done, on the other hand ammo for a 7mm-08 is far more prevalent. 
If you're looking for a hunting rifle - the 7mm-08 is the clear choice, if you're a match shooter and thus reload your own - 6.5 Creedmoor may be your choice. 


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Hunter2571

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Reply with quote  #7 
I have never shot a creedmoore yet but I know a 140 grain 7mm bullet will dump whitetail deer at 300+ yards in an instant. Gotta love sectional density! You can really hear the smack when that same bullet hits a woodchuck at those ranges as well. I haven't yet but I would have no concerns using to take a black bear as well. No need for magnums when you have a 7mm08 save the shoulders boys. I wouldn't mind getting my hands on a 6.5 creedmoore or .260 REM someday though.
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Trapeze

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Reply with quote  #8 


Let's go with the two Hornady hunting rounds from the same family, a real word choice for a hunter.
We can look at long-range next.

6.5 Creedmoor 143 gr ELD-X Precision Hunter

Test Barrel (24") Velocity (fps) / Energy (ft-lbs)

MUZZLE

100

200

300

400

500

2700/2314

2558/2077

2419/1858

2285/1658

2156/1476

2031/1309

 

Trajectory (inches)

MUZZLE

100

200

300

400

500

-1.50

1.90

0.00

-7.90

-22.40

-44.40


Ballistic Coefficient (G1)

.623

Ballistic Coefficient (G7)

.314

Sectional Density

.293


7mm-08 Rem 150 gr ELD-X Precision Hunter

Test Barrel (24") Velocity (fps) / Energy (ft-lbs)

MUZZLE

100

200

300

400

500

2770/2555

2613/2274

2461/2018

2315/1784

2173/1573

2037/1381

 

Trajectory (inches)

MUZZLE

100

200

300

400

500

-1.50

1.80

0.00

-7.50

-21.60

-43.00

 

Ballistic Coefficient (G1)

.574

Ballistic Coefficient (G7)

.289

Sectional Density

.266

 
The two have essentially the same velocity and energy out to 500 yards, statistically nil.

The difference is the Ballistic Coefficient on the 6.5 is much higher, resulting in a straighter flying bullet. Check the wind drift in the link below. at 1000 yards the creedmoor drifts 5 inches less with only 2.75 inches more drop. Drop is much more predictable to adjust for than
 drift.
The 6.5 also has a much higher sectional density, giving it greater penetration. All things being equal, SD is what gives you killing power. The 6.5 Creedmoor has one of the highest sectional densities in any hunting round, including the 7-08.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/sd.htm 

In my real world shooting, the 6.5 Creedmoor also has noticeably less recoil as well.

Capacity to buck the wind, kill when it arrives, all with less punch on my shoulder, I will take the 6.5 Creedmoor. 

[Chart Label] Ballistic Trajectory Chart
http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ballistic-trajectory-chart.php?t=9fc54773









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Trapeze

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Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by msrhunt
In the real world you don't have to use the same bullet weight though thats an artificial restraint.


When you state one is better at long range than the other, the only real way to compare and back that statement is apples to apples long range cartridge comparison. Or the best long range you can push through an AR-10 magazine.

Here is a chart with your hand load 7mm08 154gr SST (will that fit n a mag?) and a Factory load 6.5 Creedmoor 147 ELD Match.

This 7-08 drops below the speed of sound at 1299 yards, this 6.5 Creedmoor drops below the sound barrier at 1646, that is a 347-yard difference.

At a mile, (we are looking at long range performance) this 6.5 Creedmoor maintains 332 inches of higher elevation.

Max range of this 6.5 Creedmoor is 1323 yards longer than this 7-08.

The fact is, grain for grain, the 6.5 Creedmoor has a higher Ballistic Coefficient and Sectional Density. I liked this round way before the fad, for good reason.

Hornady Load Data Ballistic Trajectory Chart

7mm08 154gr SST

Drag Function: G1
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.525
Bullet Weight: 154 gr
Initial Velocity: 2800 fps
Sight Height : 1.5 in
Shooting Angle: 0°
Wind Speed: 10 mph
Wind Angle: 90°
Zero Range: 200 yd
Chart Range: 1000 yd
Maximum Range: 6404 yd
Step Size: 100 yd
International Standard Atmosphere
Altitude: Sea Level (0 ft)
Barometric Pressure: 29.92 Hg
Temperature: 59° F
Relative Humidity: 50%
Speed of Sound: 1116 fps

RangeElevationElevationElevationWindageWindageWindageTimeEnergyVel[x+y]
(yd)(in)(MOA)(MIL)(in)(MOA)(MIL)(s)(ft.lbf)(ft/s)
0-1.500.000.000.030.000.000.0026812800
1001.78-1.69-0.490.650.620.180.1123602627
2000.000.000.002.561.220.360.2320702460
300-7.542.400.705.911.880.550.3618092300
400-21.665.171.5010.832.580.750.4915742145
500-43.358.282.4117.493.340.970.6413631997
600-73.7811.743.4226.074.151.210.7911761854
700-114.3415.604.5436.805.021.460.9610111719
800-166.6919.895.7949.865.951.731.148671592
900-232.7824.707.1865.496.952.021.347431474
1000-314.8930.078.7583.878.012.331.556371365

6.5 Creedmoor 147 ELD Match

Drag Function: G1
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.697
Bullet Weight: 147 gr
Initial Velocity: 2695 fps
Sight Height : 1.5 in
Shooting Angle: 0°
Wind Speed: 10 mph
Wind Angle: 90°
Zero Range: 200 yd
Chart Range: 1000 yd
Maximum Range: 7727 yd
Step Size: 100 yd
International Standard Atmosphere
Altitude: Sea Level (0 ft)
Barometric Pressure: 29.92 Hg
Temperature: 59° F
Relative Humidity: 50%
Speed of Sound: 1116 fps

RangeElevationElevationElevationWindageWindageWindageTimeEnergyVel[x+y]
(yd)(in)(MOA)(MIL)(in)(MOA)(MIL)(s)(ft.lbf)(ft/s)
0-1.500.000.000.030.000.000.0023712695
1001.90-1.81-0.530.520.490.140.1121512567
2000.010.000.002.020.960.280.2319482443
300-7.712.450.714.601.460.430.3617592322
400-21.905.231.528.351.990.580.4915862204
500-43.258.262.4013.372.550.740.6314262090
600-72.5711.553.3619.743.140.910.7812791979
700-110.7715.114.3927.593.761.090.9411441872
800-158.9118.975.5237.024.421.291.1010211769
900-218.1823.156.7348.155.111.491.289111670
1000-289.9227.688.0561.125.841.701.46811
1576


http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ballistic-trajectory-chart.php?t=17bc4c7e



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Alesandro

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Reply with quote  #10 
Hello and I just joined this forum. I was debating between the 6.5Creed and the 7-08Rem for quite a while in concern to a gas gun. If it was a bolt gun to be it wouldn't even be a second thought and I would do the 7-08. However since I'm building an AR10, I decided to go with the 6.5Creed only because after talking with others who have put together AR10's in these flavors, they all stated (the ones I talked to) they either went with the 6.5Creed based on mag length, or if they were to do it again they would have gone with the 6.5Creed. To me that was the only reason why I went with the 6.5Creed over the 7-08Rem, how it would fit in the mag. I like the 7-08Rem better, but it seems the 6.5Creed works better.

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PeterK

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Reply with quote  #11 
Isn't this the beauty of the AR (10, 15) platform? The question isn't which you get, but which you get first. Just change uppers...

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turbinesurgeon

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Reply with quote  #12 
Thus the joy of hunting and and shooting, I already have a 7mm-08 so now I get to build a Creedmore. I'm sure I'll like it as much or more.
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NateMurray

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Reply with quote  #13 
I own both on Stiller Actions with the rest of usual bells and whistles...honestly, it really doesn't matter in a hunting rifle. I have killed enough big game and punched holes in paper to 1,000 yards. The 7-08 and the 6.5 Creedmore are the two best short action rounds available. They are ethical hunters out to 500 yards if the shooter is competent "honest" 4 inch shooter at that distance.
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trigger

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Reply with quote  #14 
I use both 7mm-08 and 6.5 Creedmoor on whitetail.  Inside of 500 yards I cannot tell any difference between the two.  Both are lethal if I do my part.  I aim for high shoulder and if my aim is on the money, they drop in their tracks regardless of which I use.  Past 500 I aim for the boiler and have found while they are both still lethal, those shot with 7mm-08 tend to run less after impact, but not enough to make any difference.  A hit in the boiler room with either one results in 175 lb whitetail going no further than 100 yards.  Granted I hunt a wide open river bottom and so a 100 yard sprint is no problem as they would have to run over 1,000 yards in either direction to get into cover so I get to watch them crash.  You can't go wrong with either one.  If I could only have one though I would hold on to my 7mm-08. When the deer are skinned out the 7mm-08 appears to consistently do a little more damage when it gets there.
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